Leaving aside the whole controversy side of it, without researching this I'd guess Brown Sugar may well be the most played live Stones song in the catalogue (with the possible exception of Jumping Jack Flash). It's been part of every tour since being released. Even Satisfaction went unplayed throughout the 70's.
Freeing up a setlist spot for something fresher isn't a bad idea. Plus, no live version I've ever heard has equalled the studio cut which has a sound and feel unmatched musically.
"Tumbling Dice" at #4 really surprises me. Not that it's not a great song, but I'm not sure I would have seen it quite cracking the Top 10. As usual, I'm wrong.
@Scott Peterson To be honest, I'm more embarrassed that I completely overlooked Honky Tonk Women when throwing out my 'most played Stones song' thought bubble. I'm wiping the old brow after getting JJF and BS right as the two most played.
Tumbling Dice... makes sense to me TBH, not sure how it charted way back when but its been a classic rock radio staple. And it's largely been a tour staple since released, although as a 'tier two' Stones warehouse I guess it misses when they play club or arena shows with more rarities.
Mind you, it's probably another signifier of how much commerce does play into the Stones artistic decisions. Tumbling Dice as a radio single is probably on par in terms of audience recognition with Under My Thumb, Paint It Black and Lets Spend The Night (as examples). But the Stones have more artistic and financial control over TD than those others. Aside from the late 60's heavy hitters (the Beggers Banquet period singles and songs onward), the Stones rarely featured any 60's material through the 70's until 1981/82.
I’ll add…it’s not easy getting everything down ‘on paper’ just right. I brought up just a couple recent news items to try and point out the hypocrisy I refer too. I’m pretty sure there’s tons more out there. There’s old movies, books, songs tv shows etc etc constantly being scrutinized to make sure they don’t upset people. Disclaimers are being added to old movies basically letting viewers know they may be offended. Is that really necessary….are people so weak minded they need stuff explained to them? Or maybe I’m just an angry old fart and you people should just get off my damn lawn…😄
I’ll try to explain myself a bit. Individually the growing incidents of occurrences like the Stones dropping a song are fairly insignificant and not particularly bothersome. Honestly I had no idea Brown Sugar has become a controversial song until they stopped playing it and it made the news.But as various ‘cancel culture’ type stuff continues to accumulate I find myself quite baffled and often annoyed. Not much of it makes much sense and I firmly believe that attempts to erase history is a truly bad thing.I just now came across a news item that referred to a ‘Woke Activist’ attempt to ‘cancel’ Clint Eastwood over a quip he made at the 1973 Academy Awards…1973…how insane is that?Then there’s the hypocrisy involved. That really gets my blood boiling. I’ll go back to the world of music and sports to demonstrate a couple recent examples. A recent story broke that ended with an NFL coach resigning over an ‘email scandal’. In brief, he said some really stupid shit in emails 10 years ago and it caught up with him. He really had no choice but to quit before he was fired. In light of what he wrote…understandable and I have no particular problem with the outcome. I have loads of issues with what I’d think of as private email correspondence finding it’s way to a Wall Street Journal story…but that’s a whole different thing. Anyway, after quitting one of coaches prior teams immediately dropped him from the teams Hall of Fame. The hypocrisy….another guy still in said Hall has a history of Domestic violence and an arrest for solicitation in his fairly recent past. So….stupid emails is worse than stepping on your girlfriends face?Then we can revisit the Stones, music and the NFL. The Stones drop a song because of a few lyrics that apparently insult some folks. Then you have the NFL deciding on who will play their biggest stage….The Super Bowl Halftime show. The lineup for 2022 includes Dr Dre, Snoop Dog and Eminem. You think they’ll do ‘Bitch Please’? I just don’t get how on one hand emails kill a guys livelihood and on the other we celebrate singers with the horrendous lyrics to so many songs by putting them on a grand stage. Most discussions I’ve seen usually end with the ‘it’s art’ comment. Personally I’ll be watching the Doggie Bowl when that halftime rolls around.Again…individually each of these are pretty inconsequential. But those ‘Woke Activists’ are out there looking to keep the momentum going on canceling history….I find that kinda disturbing.
Oh don't worry about me Scott P and spoilers, they don't bother me for some reason and what you've already said about the show, makes me even more excited to dive into seven seasons. I found there's been a lull in shows through the pandemic, obviously, so started it really as a means of not finding anything else so to speak. To now know that I may be in for a hell of a ride is very exciting to me, so spoil away!
Just to add, yesterday talking to a co-worker who is probably in her mid-60, well she said that talking to therapists who have been around for 35-40 years, they say not only did people smoke in the office like chimmneys back then, they did drink, was just more undercover.
Well, in my recollection, in the early episodes, there's a bunch of little things that will absolutely cause you to sit up/back in your seat in shock...which will then immediately be followed by a "oh, shit, yeah, that really was just how it was for us." The kids playing with the dry cleaning bags, or climbing all over the car, or what they all did when they were done picnicking. And those are just the small details that give the series such verisimilitude, never mind the big stuff like race and gender issues.
Please keep us (me) updated on how you like the show.
Well stated. To be clear, my calling out ‘woke’ people in my sarcastic way or complaining about the folks that seem to go out of there way to get offended wasn’t directed at anyone in particular. But those people exist and it appears in growing numbers. The song you brought up is amazing and most definitely would send some people into a frenzied effort to have it banished forever. I mean really…some radio stations banned Baby It’s Cold Outside for lyrics no where near as ‘bad’ as ‘Ain’t Nobody’s Business’.
I mean...yeah. The lyrics to "Baby, It's Cold Outside" are creepy as hell. And, yes, I know the context--or at least possible context--of the times. But listening with today's ears it sure sounds like date rape. Again, the song's available to buy on countless albums and I would guess most streaming services and on YouTube, so it's not like it's been banned. But what once seem light-hearted and funny now really squicks a certain percentage of listeners, so if a business wants to avoid that? [shrugs again]
I mean, I loved Breakfast at Tiffany's when I was younger, but even as a teenager, I thought the Mickey Rooney character was really weird and out of place and made me really uncomfortable. Now that same character makes the entire film unwatchable for me and, in my entirely anecdotal evidence, to many others I've spoken with.
I guess I’m able to understand the context of the times that a song like Baby It’s Cold Outside was born into….and confidently know that it was never meant to convey the message people apply to it today. But the song was removed/banned from some radio stations holiday playlists and I personally think that’s ridiculous. Those certain percentage of listeners need to lighten up…imo.
I’m completely flummoxed by this whole thing. Firstly that The Stones actually decided to drop the tune…I mean how ‘not’ Rock n Roll is that?Then there’s the wild hypocrisy when it comes to this type of thing. I’ve brought up the horrendous lyrics of so many rap songs in conversation , but get the ‘It’s Art’ replies….yet now I see people applauding the Stones for dropping this song, which Keith describes as depicting the horrors of slavery. But I guess it’s enough to simply refer to slavery to offend some people. I’ve heard the song 1,000 times…and never once thought the song intended to offend anyone. Mostly because it didn’t.It’s quite frightening the direction our crazy world is heading. Freedom of Speech….what’s that?The Stones dropping a 50 year old song because some woke people are suddenly offended?….damn….Rock n Roll really is dead.
@BillyB I mean, maybe you're right, and that Mick and Keith decided it's not worth offending people. Or maybe they thought about it and after 50 years realized that maybe the lyrics were indeed problematic. Or maybe they realized that they're playing roughly 20 songs per show, leaving roughly 420 of their songs unplayed and that it wasn't really that hard a choice?
"Beyond that…part of what bugs me is the number of people that get offended over just about anything these days."
I feel there have been times where several of us in this conversation have tried and failed to make various points, but I'm quite confident that everyone reading this thread is very clear on how you feel about that. :)
I'm still not clear on why it's such an issue for you, but I'm crystal clear on the fact that it bugs you. :)
But, again, the Stones are one of the greatest rock band of all time. But they haven't truly been rock and roll, in the generally accepted rebelious definition, since sometime in the 70s. I personally find this far less offensive a stance than releasing a song called "It's Only Rock n' Roll [but I Like It]," which to me is the exact moment at which they truly sold out. But even if you don't agree with that--and I'm sure you don't--then surely surely surely Mick prancing around in day-glo jazzercise gear did it for you? And I say that as someone who thinks Mick's got twice the integrity of Keef, even if I have no interest in ever hearing a moment of anything from his solo career.
What some people may be forgetting is that these 'bad boys of rock' are not new to censoring themselves when it's been deemed necessary (commercially or otherwise). There is history here, all of it back when 'woke' is what you did when the morning alarm goes off.
Hell, way back when they were the 'anti Beatles' in the 60's, they were asked to change 'Lets Spend The Night Together' to 'Lets Spend Some Time Together' for the Ed Sullivan show. And they did. (Mick for a long time said he didn't... but the video doesn't lie. He may have rolled his eyes while doing it, but he did it).
For the Shine A Light movie, they performed the song 'Some Girls'. The infamous lyric about what "black girls" like to do all night was conspicuously absent.
When they did the Superbowl half time show, I believe they were asked not to include the 'you make a dead man come' lyric during Start Me Up. And again the agreed. (I could be wrong on this last one... I don't think I ever saw that half time bit. Maybe they didn't even do Start Me Up, not sure).
@Bosstralian That's a great point. Meanwhile, the Doors famously took the exact opposite approach, and refused to censor themselves, thus getting themselves subsequently banned from the Sullivan show.
I have long found it pretty surprising that it wasn't an issue for this song to be played live, so I totally get the decision. And as Scott said, you can always listen to the original track any time you feel the need.
But along the same lines, when I went through a heavy blues phase a while back, listening to a lot of the stuff made in mostly the Sixties and Seventies I was quite shocked at the overtly sexist lyrics. So many songs dealt with keeping the 'little wimmins' in the kitchen and obeying the one 'paying the cost to be the boss...'
I can’t think of this show as being ‘Horrifying’. It captured in a pretty real way what life was like during that era.
Exactly, hence the "horrifying." :)
IMO we spend too much time looking at historical periods of time with today’s sensibilities.
Even if that's true—I think we could really stand to look at history through a lens of today's sensibilities quite a bit more often, or at least with more nuance and honesty about people and events from the past—it really doesn't apply in this case, since that's exactly what the Mad Men creators were going for. (We can't go into too much detail, since Kay just started watching and I don't want to spoil anything, but there are so many instances, both big and small, very much deliberately designed to shock modern viewers by showing just how different things were back then.)
The problem…at least to me, is that too many ‘modern viewers’ end up with a warped or at leased skewed sense of what the reality of these yesteryear times were. Yes it was quite different but it wasn’t all ‘horrifying’…IMO.
@BillyB But, in my opinion, a lot of people don't view shows like Mad Men, or...."problematic" lyrics through a historical lens.
They view them through a sepia tinted lense, harping back to better/happier times.
Whilst most of us can view TV shows set in that era and think "Yeah, those prevailing attitudes were not right/bad/horrifying/of their time" and take the shows (or songs) in the spirit in which they are (hopefully) intended, there are people who will utilise them as an enabler to justify import of these attitudes to a modern era.
In Scotland an old folk song called "The wee Cooper O' Fife" was up until recently sang in schools.
It's a hugely problematic song "of its time" and I'd hope is no longer shared in educational establishments.
I suppose my point is art and creativity is often misinterpreted and misappropriated, be that Regan utilising "BITUSA" or Harry Enfield's "Loadsamoney" character being adopted by the very Thatcherite types it sought to mock or other scenarios with more far reaching consequences, and we all need to be aware of that and the said possible consequences.
I don't know what the solution is, in terms of songs, TV shows etc. and I'm not 100% sure where I stand on the Stones dropping Brown Suger, but dismissing concerns about any art's lineage out of hand is not wholly helpful.
It's fair to say a great deal of the lyrics from "them days" haven't travelled well, same with TV shows and much other art/entertainment.
I think it's, to a certain and often limited extent, in the eye of the beholder.
I've no clue what the motivation/inspiration behind the lyrics to Brown Sugar were, but I'm pretty confident that most of us listening to them don't hear a manifesto promoting slavery, sexual abuse/exploitation, racism etc. but, as daft and dark as it sounds, these days some blokes quite possibly do.
Possibly the right call on their part, but I'm not sure in all honesty.
I have the exact opposite reaction. It's about time--in fact, I can't believe it took them this long. (And Keef, in my opinion by leaps and bounds the most overrated [while still being truly great] rocker ever still doesn't get it.)
I mean, the original recording is still the bangerest of bangers and it's right there any time you need to hear it. But sometimes stuff just doesn't age well, for a variety of reasons. And for me that's very much "Brown Sugar" — I absolutely love the song and find it really gross. What can I say? I contain, as Bobby D said, multitudes.
Once I sang the chorus in my head after reading about this, I too thought "how the hell could they have waited this long?" It's gross, and I'm not talking about being dainty or correct or "cancel culture," it's quite offensive. Good riddance. So sick to death of the damn song anyway. Among many others...
Leaving aside the whole controversy side of it, without researching this I'd guess Brown Sugar may well be the most played live Stones song in the catalogue (with the possible exception of Jumping Jack Flash). It's been part of every tour since being released. Even Satisfaction went unplayed throughout the 70's.
Freeing up a setlist spot for something fresher isn't a bad idea. Plus, no live version I've ever heard has equalled the studio cut which has a sound and feel unmatched musically.
I’ll add…it’s not easy getting everything down ‘on paper’ just right. I brought up just a couple recent news items to try and point out the hypocrisy I refer too. I’m pretty sure there’s tons more out there. There’s old movies, books, songs tv shows etc etc constantly being scrutinized to make sure they don’t upset people. Disclaimers are being added to old movies basically letting viewers know they may be offended. Is that really necessary….are people so weak minded they need stuff explained to them? Or maybe I’m just an angry old fart and you people should just get off my damn lawn…😄
I’ll try to explain myself a bit. Individually the growing incidents of occurrences like the Stones dropping a song are fairly insignificant and not particularly bothersome. Honestly I had no idea Brown Sugar has become a controversial song until they stopped playing it and it made the news. But as various ‘cancel culture’ type stuff continues to accumulate I find myself quite baffled and often annoyed. Not much of it makes much sense and I firmly believe that attempts to erase history is a truly bad thing. I just now came across a news item that referred to a ‘Woke Activist’ attempt to ‘cancel’ Clint Eastwood over a quip he made at the 1973 Academy Awards…1973…how insane is that? Then there’s the hypocrisy involved. That really gets my blood boiling. I’ll go back to the world of music and sports to demonstrate a couple recent examples. A recent story broke that ended with an NFL coach resigning over an ‘email scandal’. In brief, he said some really stupid shit in emails 10 years ago and it caught up with him. He really had no choice but to quit before he was fired. In light of what he wrote…understandable and I have no particular problem with the outcome. I have loads of issues with what I’d think of as private email correspondence finding it’s way to a Wall Street Journal story…but that’s a whole different thing. Anyway, after quitting one of coaches prior teams immediately dropped him from the teams Hall of Fame. The hypocrisy….another guy still in said Hall has a history of Domestic violence and an arrest for solicitation in his fairly recent past. So….stupid emails is worse than stepping on your girlfriends face? Then we can revisit the Stones, music and the NFL. The Stones drop a song because of a few lyrics that apparently insult some folks. Then you have the NFL deciding on who will play their biggest stage….The Super Bowl Halftime show. The lineup for 2022 includes Dr Dre, Snoop Dog and Eminem. You think they’ll do ‘Bitch Please’? I just don’t get how on one hand emails kill a guys livelihood and on the other we celebrate singers with the horrendous lyrics to so many songs by putting them on a grand stage. Most discussions I’ve seen usually end with the ‘it’s art’ comment. Personally I’ll be watching the Doggie Bowl when that halftime rolls around. Again…individually each of these are pretty inconsequential. But those ‘Woke Activists’ are out there looking to keep the momentum going on canceling history….I find that kinda disturbing.
Oh don't worry about me Scott P and spoilers, they don't bother me for some reason and what you've already said about the show, makes me even more excited to dive into seven seasons. I found there's been a lull in shows through the pandemic, obviously, so started it really as a means of not finding anything else so to speak. To now know that I may be in for a hell of a ride is very exciting to me, so spoil away!
Just to add, yesterday talking to a co-worker who is probably in her mid-60, well she said that talking to therapists who have been around for 35-40 years, they say not only did people smoke in the office like chimmneys back then, they did drink, was just more undercover.
Well stated. To be clear, my calling out ‘woke’ people in my sarcastic way or complaining about the folks that seem to go out of there way to get offended wasn’t directed at anyone in particular. But those people exist and it appears in growing numbers. The song you brought up is amazing and most definitely would send some people into a frenzied effort to have it banished forever. I mean really…some radio stations banned Baby It’s Cold Outside for lyrics no where near as ‘bad’ as ‘Ain’t Nobody’s Business’.
I’m completely flummoxed by this whole thing. Firstly that The Stones actually decided to drop the tune…I mean how ‘not’ Rock n Roll is that? Then there’s the wild hypocrisy when it comes to this type of thing. I’ve brought up the horrendous lyrics of so many rap songs in conversation , but get the ‘It’s Art’ replies….yet now I see people applauding the Stones for dropping this song, which Keith describes as depicting the horrors of slavery. But I guess it’s enough to simply refer to slavery to offend some people. I’ve heard the song 1,000 times…and never once thought the song intended to offend anyone. Mostly because it didn’t. It’s quite frightening the direction our crazy world is heading. Freedom of Speech….what’s that? The Stones dropping a 50 year old song because some woke people are suddenly offended?….damn….Rock n Roll really is dead.
I have long found it pretty surprising that it wasn't an issue for this song to be played live, so I totally get the decision. And as Scott said, you can always listen to the original track any time you feel the need.
But along the same lines, when I went through a heavy blues phase a while back, listening to a lot of the stuff made in mostly the Sixties and Seventies I was quite shocked at the overtly sexist lyrics. So many songs dealt with keeping the 'little wimmins' in the kitchen and obeying the one 'paying the cost to be the boss...'
It's fair to say a great deal of the lyrics from "them days" haven't travelled well, same with TV shows and much other art/entertainment.
I think it's, to a certain and often limited extent, in the eye of the beholder.
I've no clue what the motivation/inspiration behind the lyrics to Brown Sugar were, but I'm pretty confident that most of us listening to them don't hear a manifesto promoting slavery, sexual abuse/exploitation, racism etc. but, as daft and dark as it sounds, these days some blokes quite possibly do.
Possibly the right call on their part, but I'm not sure in all honesty.
Hopefully not replacing it with Stray Cat Blues.
It’s a world gone mad.
Crazy....my local top 40 station in the early 70's banned My Ding A Ling and Brown Sugar was in heavy rotation.
I have the exact opposite reaction. It's about time--in fact, I can't believe it took them this long. (And Keef, in my opinion by leaps and bounds the most overrated [while still being truly great] rocker ever still doesn't get it.)
I mean, the original recording is still the bangerest of bangers and it's right there any time you need to hear it. But sometimes stuff just doesn't age well, for a variety of reasons. And for me that's very much "Brown Sugar" — I absolutely love the song and find it really gross. What can I say? I contain, as Bobby D said, multitudes.